I’m Not Aware Shekau Is Dead... U.S. Ambassador

I have been a student of Africa and African history for a long time. I have always read a lot about Nigeria and in fact, many, many years ago, I was a school teacher in Kenya in the 70s. One of the books I had to teach to Kenyan students was Things Fall Apart by Chinua Achebe. Put aside the image of some American trying to teach an African novel, I don’t know if my students learnt anything or not, but that introduction to the literature of Nigeria has remained with me ever since. I remember when I was very young, we heard of the tragedy of the Biafran war and I have always stayed with anything Nigerian and so on.

 I have always been interested by the two religions, Christianity and Islam, how they get along. In other countries that I have served in, there was this issue of if you have massive like Uranium or copper or oil, how do you exploit the resources in a way that is good to the people, which, of course, is a challenge for you. Having heard all that over the years, I was very excited to come and see for myself. In the last three months, my overwhelming impression is Nigerian people are intelligent. Every conversation I have on any subject, (I am just coming from a roundtable discussion on the power sector here), I have really been impressed by the energy and the drive and I get this sense that Nigerian people are saying: ‘yes, we have challenges; things we have to deal with but we can do this. This is our country. We will get this done.’ They appreciate help from outsiders and they just have this very strong sense of pride that ‘this is our country. We are going to get this right.’

Let me say that all these issues that you mentioned of course are very big problems and I think we have to always remember history in what happens in a country. Sometimes we tend to focus too much on the past instead of the future and I am impressed by the creative spirit of the Nigerian people as they address all these challenges. Now, the things you touched on are huge. As I was getting ready to testify before the Senate for my confirmation for this job, I was interested to read development statistics, especially health statistics regarding Nigeria being one of the worst in Africa and I thought how can that be in Nigeria? It is clear there are huge challenges; that is the government’s responsibility, the government of Nigeria’s responsibility. That said, development partners, such as the United States, we stand ready to help in any way we can. We are hugely committed here, especially the health sector, especially on the struggle against HIV/AIDS. As I said I was just coming from a discussion on the power sector; all of these are things that must move forward, but I think with the government, private sector and foreign investors, these things can get done. The bottom line, I am a proponent of Nigerian solution to Nigerian problem; yes, with support from friends like us. You guys can do it. I am very confident of that.

Why Nigeria is importantto America

Nigeria gets more assistance from us every year than Ghana and South Africa combined. In terms of why Nigeria is important, you have one of the largest markets in Africa; you are huge; in the gulf of Guinea, you are a significant oil and gas producer; you are one of the largest democracies in Africa . All of these are things the United States of America deeply cares about and they are parts of the reasons we have such a rich partnership with you.

The Bi-National Commission

I have been struck in my short time here. Almost every sector that I look at, health, education, security, take your pick, the United States and Nigeria already have strong partnership. We have lots of stuffs going on. So, I see my task as expanding the partnership, building in it. You mentioned the Bi-National Commission, which we see as an excellent device between our two countries, which creates an umbrella to discuss issues. In a couple of weeks, we are hoping to have the next session of the BNC in Abuja to focus on governance and transparency and issues like that. So, it is a very useful mechanism for us our because it brings us together across the table to discuss important issues. 

Obviously, one of the issues we all pay attention to is your elections, which have been announced. I had a long session with the chairman of INEC, Prof Jega the other day to discuss overall how he sees things and what we can do to help with the elections. We are working out the details of that. We will be very interested in perhaps helping to train Nigerian election monitors to build their capacity and things like that and in terms of the elections, what the United States wants to see in the elections , we want to see the kind of transparency and credible elections the Nigerian people want and deserve.

Designation of Boko Haram as a terrorist organisation

I think what we were trying to do by designating the Boko Haram and Ansaru as foreign terrorist organisations is, first of all, it allows us to pay more attention to financial flows going out of the U.S. I guess that is not a big issue with Boko Haram. Designation is basically symbolic to make it clear that we stand by your country in this challenge. I made it clear to President Goodluck Jonathan when I presented my credentials to him and I have said it in public a number of times is that we want Nigeria to win the war on terror. Now, there are several aspects of that. There is the military aspect; there is the economic system aspect; there is helping the civilian population; there is the aspect about having a policy of transparency in the detention of Boko Haram suspects. 

All of these things fit together into a successful counter-terrorism campaign and policy. I was very pleased the other week in Abuja when we heard a session where some of our counter-terrorism experts came in and this was done not in the spirit of arrogance but in the spirit of humility: ‘look we have had counter insurgency and terrorism challenges…’ Our experts came and sat with your experts sat and shared ideas and see if they will be helpful here. That is the kind of things we should be doing as partners and exactly the kind of things I will work to continue while the ambassador here.

The bounty on Shekau

The reward for justice is a useful tool we use to fight terror around the world sometimes. I’m not aware Shekau is dead. It is very difficult to track him and figure out where he is, but, to my knowledge, he is still alive. Again, it is very difficult to know. The challenge of fighting terror is that you don’t lose your own soul when it comes to human rights and you must maintain the rule of law…When you apprehend Boko Haram suspects, you should take them into detention and treat them fairly and find out: Were they in fact members of Boko Haram? Or just some guy who happened to walk down the street at the wrong time? Carefully sort them out and even when you have gotten the people you know are the bad guys, there is no need to brutalise them. 

It is much better to treat them fairly and walk them through the judicial system. Yes, it is hard, but do it that way…Part of the challenge of counter-terrorism is that you are fighting an enemy who mixes with the population and I am a civilian; I am not a military guy, but I have to imagine that is one of the most difficult things for the military guys, to go into a mixed setting like that, figure out who is a terrorist and who are the innocent civilians. Carefully separating them is not easy. These are enormously difficult thing to do and that is why we are trying to help your government do better on this front as a friend, as a partner.

Winning the war on terror

Whether it is fighting terror or the war on drugs or any of these international problems that cut across borders, no one nation can do it by itself. To really get at Boko Haram, your government needs to continue working with Cameroun and Chad because these guys cross the borders. These are guys for whom international borders are largely meaningless. The only way to deal with these guys is to collaborate with your neigbours and relevant international organisations.

I think in my conversation with your government and military, I think there is a growing concern over finding an enemy who mixes with the civilian population. So, that needs to be a focus. I think one needs to look at why did it start in the first place? What drew people to this organisation in the first place? Was it lack of employment opportunity? Was it education system? I am not sure what the reasons might be. Sometimes it is hard to do but we need to ask why is it happening in our country and what can we do better in our country to make sure that this type of thing does not happen again. But we know that it is hard to look at yourself like that, but sometimes in life you have to.

Extremism and poverty

In my experience over the years, there might be not just one cause for a thing. It (extremism) can be driven by poverty, lack of economic opportunities, lack of educational opportunities. Many of these groups all over the world twist religions to promote violence, which none of the great religions of the world like.

Break up of Nigeria

If this country is going to break up in 2015, to me, I don’t see any sign of it. You have challenges in this country, but you are moving forward towards a bright future. There is no issue that the country might break up. Yes, your country had a devastating civil war just like my own country. It almost tore us into two. I think both of our countries have learnt how difficult it is to hold a country together and that has certainly been a big factor in my country. The idea that Nigeria is going to fall apart in the coming months, I am not sure where that idea is coming from.

Oil theft and U.S.

It is difficult to prove that (stolen crude oil find their way to the U.S.) because the international financial market is so amorphous. When you take oil and it goes out of the country, exactly where it ends up is very difficult to determine. But what is clear is that there is the issue of oil theft in this country…Reading about the Niger Delta before I came into this country, I had this idea that oil bunkering was a very clandestine, surreptitious activity…, but flying over the Delta in a helicopter and you can see huge (illegal) bunkering operations. Everyone knows where it is; everyone knows who is in it. It was quite an eye opener for me about how in the open it is. Yesterday (Wednesday), I spent the afternoon with your navy, looking at some trainings we are doing together and one of the observations we had was that your navy is quite capable. They have what they need. We have provided some over the years. 

They are well-trained. In addition, there are some stations onshore, radar stations and other sort of things that can help tell who is on the water. I think physically in terms of having the tools that you need to prevent physical act, you are in pretty good shape. But of course, the other issue is after a barrel of oil is pumped, where does the money go? That is a much more complicated equation. What we have said to your government is that we see this as a Nigerian problem, but one that has a very clear international element. If your investigation uncovers a money trail that it may head towards the United States, then please share that information with us and we will be delighted to have our law enforcement officers look into that.

Stolen finds stashed abroad

If there is a clear evidence that stolen money finds its way into the United States, we want to know about it. Obviously, I cannot go into specific visa cases, but corruption is a factor and sometimes some Nigerians did not receive U.S. visa or had their U.S. visas revoked because of their involvement in corrupt activities. I cannot go into details. We have very strict privacy laws… Corruption begins to end, especially when the average guy who does the right thing; pay his tax and goes to work every day begin to say: ‘Wait a minute. I want to know what you are doing with the taxes we are paying’. That is what begins to make a difference.

Bringing back stolen fund

First it is up to your law enforcement agencies and when they see it they should point it in our direction so that we can investigate. Second, citizens like you should ask where all the money is going into. That kind of civil society effort. I think it is also about using effective watchdog, like your EFCC. Also, you have to do quite a lot in the public arena.

African Growth Opportunity Act (AGOA)

I think AGOA will continue to live on … I think every step of the way we will continue to review it as you have to do with every programme…Here in Nigeria, you know it is mainly oil at benefits. We will like to see other export sector of the Nigerian economy begin to take advantage of AGOA.

Same-sex prohibition law

We have tremendous respect for the sovereignty of other nations. Now, on the same-sex marriage bill, let me be very clear: same-sex marriage is a controversial issue all over the world, including in my country. I think it is now legal in 17 or 18 states; that means it is not legal in two-third of the country. May be someday a federal court will make it the law of the land, but for now it is not. So, we understand that same-sex marriage is a very controversial issue. Quite frankly, the issue of what defines a marriage in Nigeria should be left to the Nigerian people. I think even before this bill was passed the Marriage Act specified that a marriage is between a man and a woman. 

That is a Nigerian issue, but as a friend of Nigeria, what worries us about this law is that,( I am not a lawyer) but when I read this law it looks to me that it puts restriction on freedom of assembly and the freedom of expression, which, I think, U.S. journalists will be particularly concerned about. I understand the issue of homosexuality is a hot topic here, but if you can no longer talk about it, if you can even meet to talk about it, it means to me it is a slippery slope. What is the next topic you will no longer be able to talk about or meet about? I think in a hard-won democracy like yours, when you start limiting the freedoms, it is a very worrisome thing. Take the bill, take out the word gay, put in the word ‘journalist’, how do you feel about that? The other point I will make, we are very concerned as a huge HIV/AIDS partner. 

Since the inception of our PEPFAR programme, I think we have spent about three and a half billion dollars in this country on the struggle against HIV/AIDS. We and many partners were concerned that…it might affect people coming for HIV/AIDS treatment and that kind of thing. I was very pleased the other day that NACA, I think the director came out to clarify that nothing in this bill should be misconstrued to mean people should not seek healthcare. So, I was very glad to see that. I was very concerned.

 Finally, the other thing that concerns me is that sadly there have been incidences around this country where the bill has been used to justify violence against gays, breaking into their homes, things like these and I have to think that all well-meaning Nigerians, regardless of what you think of homosexual conduct, you have to condemn this kind of thing, that kind of violence against any Nigerian.